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Bang / Guns
See other Bang / Guns Articles

Title: Open carry vs. announced carry
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Feb 20, 2015
Author: Eugene Volokh
Post Date: 2015-02-20 19:58:36 by tpaine
Keywords: None
Views: 11065
Comments: 43

Open carry vs. announced carry

As I noted yesterday, the Florida Court of Appeal held that there’s a general Second Amendment right to carry guns in public, but the state can choose whether to allow only concealed carry, allow only open carry, or allow both. I noted that this is probably a sound interpretation of the Second Amendment, and especially of the Florida constitutional right to bear arms (which was also raised by the challengers).

But it seems to me that, under the First Amendment, the state can’t ban someone from wearing a T-shirt or a large pin saying “I’m legally carrying a concealed handgun” at the same time that he is legally carrying a concealed handgun. The T- shirt or pin wouldn’t be a punishable threat of illegal conduct, because it is specifically referring to legal conduct, and it offers no reason to think that the wearer is going to use the gun illegally. And while wearing such an item might draw police attention, so would legal open carry.

Let’s take this sort of “announced carry” — concealed carry coupled with a statement that one is carrying — a step further. Say that some gun rights enthusiasts start wearing transparent plastic gun-shaped things strapped to their hips, in transparent holsters — something that is obviously not a real gun, but is symbolic of a real gun. (It should certainly not look like these T-shirts with realistic-looking holsters and guns printed on them.)

When asked, the wearers explain that these are symbolic of the fact that they are indeed lawfully carrying a concealed gun. The news gets out, and wearing such a transparent item on one’s hip will become understood as equivalent to a T-shirt saying “I’m legally carrying a concealed handgun.” (Compare how wearing particular ribbons or other symbols becomes understood at times as a particular kind of statement.) I likewise think this can’t be banned; the only reason to ban the holster would be the message that it sends, which would likewise violate the First Amendment.

On balance, the effect wouldn’t be terribly different from open carry, it seems to me. To be sure, some people might lie and wear the transparent plastic model (or the T-shirt or pin) when they’re not actually carrying a gun. But on balance, the person wearing the gun-carrying symbol would be using the symbol to convey to the public much the same that open carry conveys: I have a gun on me, though I’m claiming (quite likely correctly) that I’m carrying it completely lawfully.

I’m not opining here on whether this would be good for society or bad, or good for the carriers or bad. But I just thought I’d raise this as a thought experiment, to see whether people think it sheds any light on the open carry controversy.


Poster Comment:

" On balance, the effect wouldn’t be terribly different from open carry, it seems to me. To be sure, some people might lie and wear the transparent plastic model (or the T-shirt or pin) when they’re not actually carrying a gun."

Hmm, wearing such a T-shirt when you're not actually carrying a gun does sound like an interesting "thought experiment".

Anybody got any ideas on the wording? --- Here's my first brainfart: ---

---------- I CAN CARRY LEGALLY ----------

---------- Am I? ----------

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

#1. To: tpaine (#0)

I MIGHT BE CARRYING...

Unfortunately for you, there is only one way to find out.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-20   20:09:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: tpaine (#0)

On balance, the effect wouldn’t be terribly different from open carry, it seems to me.

Yep, you will be the first to get shot by a bad guy.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-02-20   20:34:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: All (#0)

Anybody got any ideas on the wording? --- Here's my second brainstorm: ---

---------- I CAN CARRY LAWFULLY----------

---------- ACT LIKE I AM ----------

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-20   20:36:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: tpaine, All (#3)

Anybody got any ideas on the wording? --- Here's my second brainstorm: ---

---------- I CAN CARRY LAWFULLY----------

---------- ACT LIKE I AM ----------

Why would you identify yourself as a prime target like that?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-02-20   20:38:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: SOSO, GrandIsland, Y'ALL (#4)

I MIGHT BE CARRYING...

Unfortunately for you, there is only one way to find out. --- GrandIsland

SOSO --- Yep you will be the first to get shot by a bad guy. --- Why would you identify yourself as a prime target like that?

Maybe because I really believe that the 2nd means that we have a right to carry, and that everyone that wants to, should..

More guns, less crime, makes sense to me. -- You?

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-20   21:19:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: GrandIsland (#1)

I MIGHT BE CARRYING...

50,000 primers? Too cool.

Pridie.Nones  posted on  2015-02-20   21:38:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Pridie.Nones (#6)

Primer fixation is not cool.

Carry it elsewhere.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-20   21:56:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: tpaine (#5)

More guns, less crime, makes sense to me. -- You?

I'll always agree with that.

"An armed society is a polite society."

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-20   22:28:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: tpaine, GrandIsland, Y'ALL (#5)

Maybe because I really believe that the 2nd means that we have a right to carry, and that everyone that wants to, should..

Cut your high horse down several pegs, I have my conceal carry license.

"More guns, less crime, makes sense to me. -- You?"

Not in all cases. If everyone was carrying open perhaps. But when just a few are, no. The customer at the bank that is either carrying open or wears his shirt saying that he is packing concealed will likely be the first one shot by the bad guys right after they shoot the security guard(s). Or the guy in the Kosher Deli that is either carrying open or wears his shirt saying that he is packing concealed will likely be the first one shot, period, right after he hears Allahu Akbar. That makes sense to me. You?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-02-20   23:26:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: SOSO (#9)

Not in all cases. If everyone was carrying open perhaps. But when just a few are, no. The customer at the bank that is either carrying open or wears his shirt saying that he is packing concealed will likely be the first one shot by the bad guys right after they shoot the security guard(s). Or the guy in the Kosher Deli that is either carrying open or wears his shirt saying that he is packing concealed will likely be the first one shot, period, right after he hears Allahu Akbar. That makes sense to me. You?

I would never open carry. The 20 years I did it 5 days a week was enough. Though open carry is the enemy of the anti gun crowd, ITS not very tactical.

So, while I hope millions of fools will strap a gun on their hip and carry in plain view, and desensitize all those sheeple that are scared to death of guns because of libtard fear mongering and because they haven't seen one carried by civilians for 100 years... I'll opt to carry conceal.

I went to an indoor range today... shot over 400 rounds of .45 and .357. Mostly body armor drills while my zombie target is advancing towards me. Time to reload 400 more.... dirty up that G30 and 586, again.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-20   23:42:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: SOSO (#9)

I really believe that the 2nd means that we have a right to carry, and that everyone that wants to, should.. More guns, less crime, makes sense to me. -- You?

Cut your high horse down several pegs, I have my conceal carry license.

You have a CC license, but object to displays by others who claim that they may also be armed.

You base your objection on claiming that bad guys will shoot those others first.

You carry to protect your own life, and the lives of others, Correct? -- Thus, any distraction would give you an advantage to defend life. -- So why object?

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-21   11:08:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: tpaine (#11)

I really believe that the 2nd means that we have a right to carry, and that everyone that wants to, should

I believe the 2nd means every state should be like Arizona's constitutional carry.

No license or permit required, no restrictions to where and how you carry.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-21   12:04:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: GrandIsland (#10)

I would never open carry. The 20 years I did it 5 days a week was enough. Though open carry is the enemy of the anti

The only time I open carry is if, say I'm going miles into a mountain forest, I open carry for easiest access because I'm allergic to having my intestines eaten. Bears and mountain lions don't care if you open carry or conceal. In the city, always concealed.

We used to be a land where we gave up our lives to protect our freedom. Now we give up our freedom to protect our lives.

We The People  posted on  2015-02-21   12:37:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: We The People (#13)

The only time I open carry is if, say I'm going miles into a mountain forest, I open carry for easiest access because I'm allergic to having my intestines eaten. Bears and mountain lions don't care if you open carry or conceal. In the city, always concealed.

I only open carry when I'm hunting... and even then I'll conceal one gun.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-21   12:57:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: GrandIsland (#12)

I really believe that the 2nd means that we have a right to carry, and that everyone that wants to, should.

I believe the 2nd means every state should be like Arizona's constitutional carry. --- No license or permit required, no restrictions to where and how you carry.

Exactly. And Article IV, Section 2, clearly says that citizens of any state are entitled to the rights/privileges of those in others.

Thus, I don't agree with the author above (Volokh), that States have the power to license concealed carry. CC should be a constitutional 'given'.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-21   13:46:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: SOSO (#2)

"Yep, you will be the first to get shot by a bad guy."

I think we should have TP wear a shirt claiming he has a gun but not allow him to carry one.

While the bad guys are gunning him down, it gives us time to draw our weapons.

misterwhite  posted on  2015-02-21   13:50:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: GrandIsland (#10)

I went to an indoor range today... shot over 400 rounds of .45 and .357. Mostly body armor drills while my zombie target is advancing towards me. Time to reload 400 more.... dirty up that G30 and 586, again.

That is an expense hobby you have. I do most of my target practice with my Ruger 22 then finish off with about 50 each of 9mm and 38spl. That's still about $70-75 worth of ammo.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-02-21   14:01:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: tpaine (#11)

Cut your high horse down several pegs, I have my conceal carry license.

You have a CC license, but object to displays by others who claim that they may also be armed.

Were did I object to that? You are being a drama queen. All I said that was that it is a stupid idea to identify oneself as a target. You certainly have a right to be stupid if you choose.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-02-21   14:03:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: tpaine (#11)

Thus, any distraction would give you an advantage to defend life. --

Whatever you say, Sparky. Where should we send the flowers?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-02-21   14:04:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: misterwhite, makes a snide, stalking type comment. (#16)

SOSO (#2) --- "Yep, you will be the first to get shot by a bad guy."

misterwhite --- I think we should have TP wear a shirt claiming he has a gun but not allow him to carry one.

I think those that use the bozo idea to avoid debate, like misterwhite, should not make snide, backbiting comments about their opponents.

As to CC permits, I refuse to get a license for an inalienable right.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-21   14:05:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: misterwhite (#16)

While the bad guys are gunning him down, it gives us time to draw our weapons.

And I am sure that his family will be soooooo grateful for his sacrifice for you.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-02-21   14:06:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: SOSO (#9)

I have my conceal carry license.

You have a CC license, but object to displays by others who claim that they may also be armed.

You base your objection on claiming that bad guys will shoot those others first.

You carry to protect your own life, and the lives of others, Correct? -- Thus, any distraction would give you an advantage to defend life. -- So why object?

Where did I object? ----

At #9, just above. -- And please continue making a fool of yourself.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-21   14:14:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: tpaine (#22)

At #9, just above. -- And please continue making a fool of yourself.

It is clear that you do not understand the English language. Not only are you stupid but deminstrate that you are the fool. Take the last word, Sparky, you will need it.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-02-21   14:16:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: SOSO (#17)

That is an expense hobby you have. I do most of my target practice with my Ruger 22 then finish off with about 50 each of 9mm and 38spl. That's still about $70-75 worth of ammo.

It's not real expensive if you load your own ammo

I can buy 500 hardcast lead bullets for 45.00... So after the expense of primers and powder, I can make a box of 50 .45acp for 5 bucks.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-21   14:16:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: GrandIsland (#24)

I can buy 500 hardcast lead bullets for 45.00... So after the expense of primers and powder, I can make a box of 50 .45acp for 5 bucks.

And the cost of equipment?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-02-21   14:17:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: SOSO (#25)

Equipment isn't cheap, I won't sugar coat it... but I've been hand loading ammo since the 80's. The cost of my equipment has paid for itself long ago. The equipment is durable. I have two single stage presses and one turret press. My single stage presses I bought new when I started. They still work flawlessly. All my die sets, powder scales and powder throwers are also original equipment.... still work fine.

I did buy a fully progressive press on the early 90's... and sold it to a buddy (who still uses it today).

I scab all my brass from the ground at the range, or the trash can at the range. I have hundreds of pounds of brass in many many calibers. In fact, I have so much .223 brass and .40 cal brass, I might have to give some of it away.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-21   14:30:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: GrandIsland (#26)

Equipment isn't cheap, I won't sugar coat it... but I've been hand loading ammo since the 80's. The cost of my equipment has paid for itself long ago. The equipment is durable. I have two single stage presses and one turret press. My single stage presses I bought new when I started. They still work flawlessly. All my die sets, powder scales and powder throwers are also original equipment.... still work fine.

What would you estimate the cost and breakeven period for purchasing the necessary equipment today to reload 9mm (which cost about 26 cents per round if store bought and 38 spl (which cost about 35 cents per round) assuming you shoot 1500-2000 rounds per year?

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2015-02-21   14:40:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: SOSO (#27) (Edited)

What would you estimate the cost and breakeven period for purchasing the necessary equipment today to reload 9mm (which cost about 26 cents per round if store bought and 38 spl (which cost about 35 cents per round) assuming you shoot 1500-2000 rounds per year?

Depends how much you shoot and how much time you want to spend reloading. You can buy just the basics, the bare minimum in equipment, for 300.00-400.00 bucks.

You pay 26.00 a hundred in 9mm. You can make 100 rounds for 10.00 bucks. So you can pay for your equipment after 3,000 - 4,000 rounds... if my math is right

Now, if you want to make a lot of ammo, fast, you are gonna want a progressive press, powder thrower, a fast priming tool... and I'd suggest a case tumbler to clean your brass between loadings. All that stuff costs more than a single stage press, powder scale and the basics.

I paid for my equipment by loading .45acp for IPSC shooters that required 200 rounds of hardcast .45 every week to compete. I loaded for several shooters until they paid for all my equipment. Then I sold the progressive press, bought a turret press... and now load just for myself. Someone else paid for my expensive equipment.... it's called capitalism. lol

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-21   14:57:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: tpaine (#15)

" CC should be a constitutional 'given'."

I tend to agree.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Stoner  posted on  2015-02-21   17:05:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: We The People (#13)

" The only time I open carry is if, say I'm going miles into a mountain forest, I open carry for easiest access because I'm allergic to having my intestines eaten. Bears and mountain lions don't care if you open carry or conceal. In the city, always concealed. "

Makes sense. I have a cousin in NM who spends a great deal of time in the mountains, and if not carrying a long gun, carries a 10mm, because of the cats. He is thinking about a S&W 500.

When I am on my property, I open carry. When I leave my property, then I CC.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Stoner  posted on  2015-02-21   17:13:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Stoner, Y'ALL, gatlin, misterwhite (#29)

" CC should be a constitutional 'given'."

I tend to agree.

I'd bet fairly big money that nearly everyone who posts here would agree. Even the clowns like gatlin and misterwhite give lip service to our inalienable rights to bear (carry) arms. They just claim that a majority can make 'regulations' damn near up to the point that certain arms are prohibited..

Majority Rule Communitarians have a screw loose.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-21   17:17:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Stoner (#30)

I have a cousin in NM who spends a great deal of time in the mountains, and if not carrying a long gun, carries a 10mm, because of the cats. He is thinking about a S&W 500.

I'd like to get a 'Judge' revolver. ('Illegal' in Ca.) They're about the size and weight of the big magnum pistols, but they chamber a .410 shotgun shell, which in #4 buckshot, would spread and give you a little better chance of hitting a fast moving cat...

Granted, you may just have a very pissed off cat on your hands with a marginal hit..

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-21   17:35:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: We The People (#13)

Duuuude! Good to see ya.

Liberator  posted on  2015-02-21   17:47:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: tpaine (#7)

I refuse. The poster is a god-damned liar.

Pridie.Nones  posted on  2015-02-21   22:13:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Pridie.Nones (#34)

I refuse. The poster is a god-damned liar.

Lying about how many primers he has? Why would he? Primers are a critical component of ammo, and are a good store of value. And if the flag goes up they would become very valuable overnight..

So stop making yourself look like a fool over them. -- And in any case, stop bothering me with your hissy fits.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-21   22:28:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: tpaine (#35)

In no way in HELL does the poster have or personally possess 50,000 primers other than the lip service that you buy. Such a shame that you fall to absolute bulls**t.

Pridie.Nones  posted on  2015-02-21   22:56:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: tpaine (#36)

I appreciate you trying to talk sense into this poster, but it's not right that you should be spit at for my sake.

Him not believing me doesn't really bother me at all. What bothers me most is that he isn't smart enough to amass the most important part of the ammo components. Especially after we've already had two primer shortages over the last 10 years. If he truly understood the importance of amassing them, he wouldn't have such a hard time believing I've done it.

If we collapse, primers will be like gold. If primers are ever banned and controlled by big brother, they'll be worth more than gold.

Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. Robert Kennedy

GrandIsland  posted on  2015-02-21   23:09:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: GrandIsland (#37)

As soon as I saw that pitiful line I started laughing. This idiot is a truly little person. Reminds me a bit of Yukon, much the same dumb style.

tpaine  posted on  2015-02-22   1:49:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: tpaine (#32)

" Granted, you may just have a very pissed off cat on your hands with a marginal hit.. "

For a big cat, I would suggest something with a heavier projectile than buck shot.

Myself, I would prefer a long gun, 30-06, 45-70, something like that.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Stoner  posted on  2015-02-22   3:35:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Liberator (#33)

Duuuude! Good to see ya.

How the hell have you been? Good to see you're still around.

We used to be a land where we gave up our lives to protect our freedom. Now we give up our freedom to protect our lives.

We The People  posted on  2015-02-24   21:47:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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