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U.S. Constitution
See other U.S. Constitution Articles

Title: State Passes Law to Legalize Shooting Police
Source: The Free Thought Project
URL Source: http://thefreethoughtproject.com/st ... se-police/#7wJMBSOvkKRX0ad4.99
Published: Feb 3, 2014
Author: Matt Agorist
Post Date: 2015-02-03 23:36:00 by Hondo68
Keywords: terminate the public servant, authority to protect, unlawful entry or attack
Views: 9154
Comments: 26

gun-door

Finally some rational legislation is passed concerning ‘public servants’ unlawfully entering another person’s property.

All too often, we see examples of cops breaking into the wrong house and shooting the family dog, or worse, killing a member of the family.

Well, Indiana has taken action to “recognize the unique character of a citizen’s home and to ensure that a citizen feels secure in his or her own home against unlawful intrusion by another individual or a public servant.”

This special amendment is no revolutionary new thought, only common sense.

Self-defense is a natural right; when laws are in place that protect incompetent police by removing one’s ability to protect one’s self, simply because the aggressor has a badge and a uniform, this is a human rights violation. Indiana is leading the way by recognizing this right and creating legislation to protect it.

Of course cops have already begun to fear monger the passage of this bill, “If I pull over a car and I walk up to it and the guy shoots me, he’s going to say, ‘Well, he was trying to illegally enter my property,’ ” said Joseph Hubbard, 40, president of Jeffersonville Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 100. “Somebody is going get away with killing a cop because of this law.”

Instead of looking at the beneficial aspect of this law, which creates the incentive for police to act responsibly and just, Hubbard takes the ‘higher than thou’ attitude and is simply worried about himself.

How about questioning the immoral laws that you are enforcing in the first place? Or how about sympathizing with the innocent people whose pets and family members have been slain, due to police negligence?

Who’s to say that a cop pulling you over to extort money from you for the victimless crime of not wearing a seatbelt, isn’t an unlawful act? Or how about breaking down your door in the middle of the night to kidnap you and throw you in a cage for possessing a plant?

Hopefully this legislation will lead to these arbitrary traffic and drug enforcement “laws” in place solely for revenue collection (aka theft), being brought into question.

The law states:

(i) A person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary to:
(1) protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force;
(2) prevent or terminate the public servant’s unlawful entry of or attack on the person’s dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle; or
(3) prevent or terminate the public servant’s unlawful trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person’s possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person’s immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect.

It is through legislation such as this, which will empower people again and aid in bringing down these tyrants from their pedestals, who are given free rein to murder and pillage without consequence. (1 image)

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 14.

#14. To: hondo68 (#0)

Self-defense is a natural right; when laws are in place that protect incompetent police by removing one’s ability to protect one’s self, simply because the aggressor has a badge and a uniform, this is a human rights violation. Indiana is leading the way by recognizing this right and creating legislation to protect it.

Even though this is a couple years old, we must never forget that a police officer acting unlawfully deserves to be treated like a criminal if he threatens you, your home or your family.

Badges don't grant special rights, no matter what the badge bunnies at LF claim.

Deckard  posted on  2015-02-04   8:17:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 14.

#15. To: Deckard, hondo68, ALL (#14)

Self-defense is a natural right; when laws are in place that protect incompetent police by removing one’s ability to protect one’s self, simply because the aggressor has a badge and a uniform, this is a human rights violation. Indiana is leading the way by recognizing this right and creating legislation to protect it.

Indiana changed nothing, the law was reworded the law for clarity.
You attack or shoot a cop in the performance of his lawful duty....
you can still be arrested and brought to trial.

In March 2012, Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels signed into a law a bill that was designed to “remedy” a controversial decision of the Indiana Supreme Court. Without going into too much detail, the issue was whether a homeowner could use force against a police officer to prevent that officer from illegally entering the homeowner’s house. The bill signed into law by Gov. Daniels recognizes that the so-called “castle doctrine” (the right to use force and no obligation to retreat from your home) applies, even if used against police officers.

In all honesty, I didn’t pay too much attention to this particular bill. On one hand, I was offended at the notion of police officers being allowed to conduct an unlawful entry and the homeowner not being able to prevent it. On the other hand, the idea that we would ever condone using force against a police officer just seems wrong. After all, if the entry is unlawful, the homeowner has recourse through the courts against the officer and the municipality for the unlawful entry. That seems a much better resolution that force which, in many instances, is likely to escalate.

But it was the ongoing story of the killing of Trayvon Martin in Florida and the impact of Florida’s so-called “stand your ground” law that caught my attention. Because, and I was not aware of this, Indiana (largely at the behest of the National Rifle Association) passed a very similar “stand your ground” law back in 2006. Now that I’ve looked at that law, I must stay that I’m more than a bit scared of its real-world implications. But first, let’s look at the actual text of the law. (Text in bold was added in 2012; text in strikeout was deleted in 2012; I hope the formatting works as expected…)

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Indiana:

SECTION 1. IC 35-41- 3-2, AS AMENDED BY P.L.189-2006, SECTION 1, IS AMENDED TO READ AS FOLLOWS [EFFECTIVE UPON PASSAGE]: Sec. 2. (a) In enacting this section, the general assembly finds and declares that it is the policy of this state to recognize the unique character of a citizen’s home and to ensure that a citizen feels secure in his or her own home against unlawful intrusion by another individual or a public servant. By reaffirming the long standing right of a citizen to protect his or her home against unlawful intrusion, however, the general assembly does not intend to diminish in any way the other robust self defense rights that citizens of this state have always enjoyed. Accordingly, the general assembly also finds and declares that it is the policy of this state that people have a right to defend themselves and third parties from physical harm and crime. The purpose of this section is to provide the citizens of this state with a lawful means of carrying out this policy.

(b) As used in this section, “public servant” means a person described in IC 35-41-1- 17, IC 35-31.5-2-129, or IC 35-31.5-2-185.

(c) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another any other person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:

(1) is justified in using deadly force; and

(2) does not have a duty to retreat;

if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

(b) (d) A person:

(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another any other person; and

(2) does not have a duty to retreat;

if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person’s unlawful entry of or attack on the person’s dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.

(c) (e) With respect to property other than a dwelling, curtilage, or an occupied motor vehicle, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another any other person if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person’s trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person’s possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person’s immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person:

(1) is justified in using deadly force; and

(2) does not have a duty to retreat;

only if that force is justified under subsection (a). (c).

(d) (f) A person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another any other person and does not have a duty to retreat if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or stop the other person from hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an aircraft in flight. For purposes of this subsection, an aircraft is considered to be in flight while the aircraft is:

(1) on the ground in Indiana:

(A) after the doors of the aircraft are closed for takeoff; and

(B) until the aircraft takes off;

(2) in the airspace above Indiana; or

(3) on the ground in Indiana:

(A) after the aircraft lands; and

(B) before the doors of the aircraft are opened after landing.

(e) (g) Notwithstanding subsections (a), (b) and (c), (c) through (e), a person is not justified in using force if:

(1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime;

(2) the person provokes unlawful action by another person with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or

(3) the person has entered into combat with another person or is the initial aggressor unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the other person the intent to do so and the other person nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action.

(f) (h) Notwithstanding subsection (d), (f), a person is not justified in using force if the person:

(1) is committing, or is escaping after the commission of, a crime;

(2) provokes unlawful action by another person, with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or

(3) continues to combat another person after the other person withdraws from the encounter and communicates the other person’s intent to stop hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an aircraft in flight.

(i) A person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary to:

(1) protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force;

(2) prevent or terminate the public servant’s unlawful entry of or attack on the person’s dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle; or

(3) prevent or terminate the public servant’s unlawful trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person’s possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person’s immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect.

(j) Notwithstanding subsection (i), a person is not justified in using force against a public servant if:

(1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime;

(2) the person provokes action by the public servant with intent to cause bodily injury to the public servant;

(3) the person has entered into combat with the public servant or is the initial aggressor, unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the public servant the intent to do so and the public servant nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action; or

(4) the person reasonably believes the public servant is:

(A) acting lawfully; or

(B) engaged in the lawful execution of the public servant’s official duties.

(k) A person is not justified in using deadly force against a public servant whom the person knows or reasonably should know is a public servant unless:

(1) the person reasonably believes that the public servant is:

(A) acting unlawfully; or

(B) not engaged in the execution of the public servant’s official duties; and

(2) the force is reasonably necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person.

SECTION 2. An emergency is declared for this act.

Yeah, I know, I know. For the non-lawyers out there, that’s quite a mouthful. But, as I mentioned before, it’s not the castle doctrine that I want to focus on, but rather, the stand your ground component of the law. Let me reprint the most relevant portion (and I’ve highlighted the section I want to discuss):

(c) A person is justified in using reasonable force against any other person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:

(1) is justified in using deadly force; and

(2) does not have a duty to retreat;

if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

Go ahead. Read it again. I’ll wait.

Done? OK.

Now, with that law fresh in your mind, I want you to think about the following scenarios and, in each case, decide whether you have the right to shoot to kill.

  • You see a little old lady being robbed on the street. Her attacked is grabbing her purse and pushing her down toward the ground. You believe that the only way to stop the robber from getting away with her purse is to shoot him.
  • You see two boys engaging in a fist fight and you notice that one of them has a knife in his pants pocket.
  • You see an adult yelling at a child and hitting that child in the parking lot of a shopping mall. The adult is not hitting the child’s face, but is doing more than spanking the child’s butt.
  • You are walking through an alley and you see several rough looking men. You think that you hear them call you a mark.
  • You are a woman and your husband decides that he wants to have sex, even after you’ve said no. He pushes you onto the bed and starts to lower his pants.
  • As you are pulling up your driveway after a night out, you see someone trying to jimmy open your garage door.
  • You hear a sound and walk out to the patio of your lake house and see someone pulling away from the dock in your motorboat. (You may want to look at Section (e), too.)
  • You get into an argument with someone at a bar (you looked at his girlfriend the wrong way) and he yells, “I’m gonna kill you!”

Now I’m certainly not an expert in criminal law. But it seems to me that in each of the examples that I’ve given, a legitimate (though not necessarily winning) argument could be made that you have the statutory authority to use deadly force. And note that only three of these eight cases involve actual self-defense and several don’t involve likelihood of personal injury at all.

I think that we all need to be able to defend ourselves. And we shouldn’t get in trouble for trying to help someone else. But I do worry about the statutory authorization to use force — including deadly force — in some of these sorts of situation. Yes, we want to protect innocent people from being hurt; but what risk of unintended consequences or death or serious injury caused by mistake are we willing to accept?

One further point that I want to note, and some have apparently suggested that this is a point that was directly at issue in the Travyon Martin/George Zimmerman matter:

No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

Of course, the real question is what means were necessary. But I’d certainly argue that if you were to use force in any of the instances set forth above, that you would certainly have a decent argument that your use of force was a reasonable means. And so, here’s the proverbial rub. If you are arrested or brought to trial, you are placed in legal jeopardy. Note that the statute doesn’t say that the circumstances surrounding your use of force are a defense to or justification for the use of that force, but that you can’t be placed in legal jeopardy. Think of it this way: Absent this law, if you were to shoot and kill the men in that dark alley that you worried were about to assault or rob you and the state decided to prosecute you for murder (or manslaughter or whatever), your defense would be self-defense and it would up to a jury (I think…) to decide if your use of force was justified and, with that in mind, whether your conduct was criminal. But with the stand your ground legislation, the question most likely could never get to a jury because that would mean that you had already been placed in legal jeopardy. I suppose that, so long as you can articulate any sort of reasonable basis for your use of force, then the police and prosecutors would be hamstrung and unable to arrest or prosecute you. And query whether that is any different if they don’t believe you.

I think that these stand your ground laws have enormous potential for very bad unintended consequences. And, while I’m not suggesting that self-defense or the prevention of a forcible crime not be legitimate defenses, I think that I’d be more comfortable if the analysis of whether a person acted properly was conducted by a jury with all of the facts rather than in a split-second decision or by a police officer confronted by a “reasonable” explanation. Let’s allow the legal system work rather than trying to pre-judge certain outcomes.

http://blog.wallack.us/2012/03/stand-your-ground- analysis.html.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-04 09:12:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Deckard (#14) (Edited)

The Castle Doctrine law says that if someone has entered or is attempting to enter your home without your consent, you're legally permitted to use a reasonable amount of force to expel the intruder from your residence. If you reasonably believe your life or members of your family are in danger, you can use lethal force. The revision to Indiana's law simply states that public servants aren't exempt from such treatment.

Rutherford pointed out that the word "reasonable" appears throughout the revision to the Indiana law. "That's important. The amount of force you use must be reasonable," he said. "So if a police officer pokes his head inside your screen door because he heard something suspicious, no, you don't now have free rein to shoot him."

Indiana residents must reasonably believe the public servant is attempting to enter their home illegally and use no more force than is reasonably necessary to dispel the threat to their lives or property.

So Hoosiers can't use any force if the public servant isn't a threat and can't use lethal force unless there's good reason to believe the intruding police officer presents an immediate and significant threat to the safety of those inside.

An Indiana resident's mere assertion that he shot a police officer because he thought the cop had entered his home illegally and presented a threat doesn't necessarily get him off the hook. If a prosecutor thinks the homeowner acted unreasonably, he or she can still press charges. And if members of a jury then determine that that the homeowner's assessment of the threat wasn't reasonable, they can still convict him.

To see what the amendment does, consider the case of Cory Maye, one I've written about for several years. In 2001, police in Prentiss, Miss., obtained a warrant to search both apartments of a duplex. Maye lived on one side. On the other side lived Jamie Smith, who was facing drug charges.

One night Cory Maye was asleep with his 18-month-old daughter. Maye claims he awoke to the sound of men attempting to break into his home. When the men went to the back of the house and kicked open the door to the bedroom where his daughter was sleeping, Maye shot and killed the first person to enter his home. Maye said when he realized the intruders were police, he immediately surrendered; there were bullets still left in his gun. The person Maye killed was Ron Jones, a Prentiss police officer. Maye had no criminal record and wasn't a drug dealer; police found one burnt marijuana cigarette in Maye's apartment. At his trial, Maye was prevented from arguing he acted in defense of his daughter. He argued he had acted in self- defense but the jury nonetheless convicted him of capital murder and sentenced him to death.

The Mississippi Supreme Court eventually awarded Maye a new trial on the grounds that the trial judge improperly barred him from arguing that he was also defending his daughter that night. After that ruling, prosecutors allowed Maye to plead guilty to manslaughter. He was released from prison last summer.

If the raid on Maye's home had occurred in Indiana after last year's state Supreme Court ruling, Maye would have been barred from arguing to a jury that he had been defending himself or his daughter. The jury would hear only that he had killed a cop. The revision to the state law that Gov. Daniels signed last week merely permits someone in Maye's position to argue self-defense in front of a jury.

So why are Indiana's police officials so worried? Like any interest group, police organizations are designed to support policies that benefit their members. If you have a state court ruling that says citizens can never use force against police officers even when one flagrantly violates the law, it isn't difficult to see why police groups would aggressively oppose any legislation to override that ruling. Just last week, a police union leader in Arkansas absurdly called for a federal criminal investigation of citizens who criticize police misconduct, claiming such actions threaten officer safety. And in April, a police union official in Philadelphia called for disbanding a citizen review board that investigates police misconduct, calling the board "a direct threat to public safety."

The fact that a police organization says a new policy will harm police officers or the public doesn't mean it is so.

The other concern police have expressed is that the new law will encourage citizens to take up arms against officers with search warrants.

But even this concern is unfounded. Any possible effect the new amendment might have on emboldening drug dealers to kill cops during drug raids is still likely to be offset by the reality that anyone who intentionally decides to take on a well-armed SWAT team isn't likely to live to see a courtroom. And if such a person is now permitted to argue self-defense in Indiana doesn't mean the argument will succeed.

Maye, who was allowed to argue self-defense and is about as sympathetic a defendant as there can be in such a case, was still convicted by a jury and sentenced to death. In all but the most egregious cases of misconduct, a jury's sympathies will still lie with the slain police officer.

The amendment's main effect on drug raid cases will be that if someone is by mistake considered a suspect -- and if in the confusion and volatility of the moment he mistakenly shoots and kills a police officer -- he'll now be permitted to argue in court that a reasonable person in the same position could easily have made the same mistake.

In seven years of reporting on paramilitary-style drug raids, I've reviewed cases where police officers have shot and killed innocent people after mistaking a blue cup or a glinting wristwatch for a gun. In nearly all of these situations the officers were cleared because prosecutors determined that given all the circumstances, the officers had made a reasonable error in judgment. Now in Indiana, the citizens on the receiving end of these raids will be given the same consideration.

"In the end, that's all this amendment does," Rutherford said. "It really just puts police officers on the same level as everyone else."

Source.

Gatlin  posted on  2015-02-04 11:35:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Deckard, equal protection under the law (#14)

Indiana law, Castle Doctrine, and common sense

Flag of Indiana. Note the
torch of liberty. The new Indiana law recalls the ideals of this flag.
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Last spring, Indiana passed a new law (Senate Enrolled Act 1) that breaks new ground for the Castle Doctrine. When Governor Mitch Daniels signed this new Indiana law, not many people heard about it. They are hearing about it now. The new Indiana law gives ordinary citizens a right they never had before. Now a person may shoot a police officer who exceeds his authority. An excitable police union steward fears that Hoosiers will declare open season on the police. A little common sense, and plain reading of the Indiana law, shows that this should not happen.

What the Indiana law says

Before Act 1, Indiana already had the “Castle Doctrine” as part of its criminal laws. That Doctrine says that any person under a deadly attack may counterattack, even with deadly force, inside his home. In some States, a person’s “castle” includes his workplace or his car. Indiana law, since 2006, goes further: a person under deadly attack anywhere he goes may counterattack with deadly force if he has to, to save his own life or the life of a third person. A person can also resist with deadly force any attack on his house, the land around it, or his car (while he is in it).

Act 1 goes further still. Before it, “public servants” could attack people with impunity. A judge actually said so in a memorable case (Barnes v. Indiana, cause #82002-0808-CM-759, Indiana Supreme Court). Richard Barnes was beating his wife, or so the police believed. They barged in. At trial, he argued that the police had no right to barge in. The Indiana Supreme Court eventually said that a civilian had

no right to reasonably resist unlawful entry by police officers.

Several Indiana senators took exception to that in a friend-of-the-court brief. They wanted the Court to re-hear the case. The court said no. Hence Act 1.

Now, any public servant who is not merely “doing his duty,” or who exceeds his lawful duty and authority, may face the same kind of deadly counterattack that any ordinary burglar, robber, or assailant would. That includes a police officer kicking in a door (or shooting out a lock) and barging in, guns drawn or blazing, without a warrant. But this would not apply to someone:

  • Doing something criminal,
  • Running away after having done something criminal,
  • Forcing the officer to defend himself, or
  • Who knows, or should know, that the officer has a warrant and is doing no more than his sworn duty.

What the Indiana law does not say

Flag of Indiana. Note the torch of liberty. The new Indiana law recalls the
ideals of this flag.

Flag of Indiana. The torch with the stars around it stands for liberty.

The new Indiana law does not make open season on police officers. Sadly, many police officers don’t understand or won’t admit this. Sergeant Joe Hubbard of the police in Jeffersonville, IN, says,

If I pull over a car and I walk up to it and the guy shoots me, he’s going to say, “Well, he was trying to illegally enter my property.” Somebody is going get away with killing a cop because of this law.

No, Sergeant Hubbard. If you read the law more carefully, you’ll note that before that driver can shoot you, he must reasonably believe that you are doing more than giving him a speeding ticket.

In fact, cops can, and often do, attack people who haven’t provoked them. In one Ohio case last year, a cop threatened to kill someone at a traffic stop. That someone had a permit to carry a concealed gun. Anyone carrying a concealed weapon in Ohio must tell any officer who stops them that he has one. This person tried to tell the cop about his gun, but the cop interrupted him and would not let him talk.

F___ing talking to me with a G_dd___d gun! You want me to pull mine and stick it to your head? … I tell you what I should have done. As soon as I saw your gun I should have taken two steps back, pulled my Glock 40 and put ten bullets in your ___ and let you drop. And I wouldn’t have lost any sleep!

Even worse was the rumor that someone pretending to be a cop was stopping people on the highway, robbing them, and killing them. Now, under Act 1, anyone facing that kind of attack, or tirade, could protect himself, or someone else.

Common sense rules

A little common sense will remind everyone that:

  • Cops are people, too, and are not perfect.
  • Cops do bad things sometimes.

More than that, the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution protects people, as well as their property, from “unreasonable searches and seizures.”

Note that the law still does not protect anyone doing something criminal, or trying to run away from that. And any court will know the kind of exigent circumstances will let an officer break into a home anyway. If someone inside is screaming for help, anyone outside can figure out that maybe someone is hurting or trying to kill that person (or someone else). The new Indiana law will not stop an officer from breaking in to offer that kind of help. But it will let a homeowner defend himself against a SWAT team breaking into the wrong house. That happens, too, and sometimes innocent people die that way.

Next steps

The new Indiana law does nothing more than say that “public servants” have to obey the law, too. If they break it, someone who isn’t a public servant can still defend himself.

A law like this is only the first step. The next step is to ask whether our police already act too much like soldiers in battle. Some argue that a free people shouldn’t even have “police” as we know them today. Others say that police officers have started acting too much like soldiers recently. One thing a free person can’t argue with: when the police forget that they are part of the community, they’ll start acting like an occupying army. The new Indiana law will check this. Other States should copy that law.

Hondo68  posted on  2015-02-04 12:09:18 ET  (4 images) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 14.

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