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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: Three Articles that help explain Israel
Source: WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod)
URL Source: http://www.wels.net/news-events/for ... december-2008/invisible-church
Published: Jun 24, 2012
Author: various - Noted at end of each article.
Post Date: 2012-06-24 10:03:21 by SJN
Keywords: None
Views: 244214
Comments: 482

The Invisible Church

As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see.

Church. The word paints a picture. You see the building in which you worship. It may be a small, white-frame building set on a hill in the quiet countryside. Or it may be a large, stone structure occupying a street corner in a busy city. It’s not unusual for us to think of a building when we think of church. Worship is an important part of our lives, and that worship takes place in a building we love, whether it is fancy or plain.

But that is not the way the word church is used in the Bible. In Scripture, church most often refers to people and not to buildings.

The church is invisible

In the New Testament the word ecclesia is often translated as church. Ecclesia refers to a group of people who have been called together. It is an assembly. Yet even that definition does not fully explain what the church is. As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. The church is both visible and invisible.

Why would we call a church invisible? You can see a building. You can see the people who gather in that building. Yet we do speak of the church as invisible in the Apostles’ Creed when we confess “I believe in the holy Christian church, the communion of saints.” Sometimes people mistakenly use the term saint to refer to a person who does an abundance of good deeds, someone who helps others. But the Bible uses the term to describe simply a believer. We even distinguish between believers who have been called home to heaven and those who still battle in this world. We speak of saints triumphant and saints militant.

The apostle Peter describes these believers as “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God” (1 Peter 2:9). Together all believers form the holy Christian church, a “spiritual house” made up of living stones chosen by God. When the Holy Spirit works faith in our hearts, we become part of this structure. The Lord Jesus can see the faith in our hearts. We, however, can only see the fruits of faith and not the faith itself. Because we cannot see faith, the church is invisible to our eyes. The prophet Elijah did not recognize that there were still seven thousand believers in Israel (1 Kings 19:8-18). He thought that he was the only believer left. Likewise, we cannot always tell whether a person is a believer or an unbeliever.

As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see.

Although the church may be invisible to us, the Lord sees his church clearly. “The Lord knows those who are his” (2 Timothy 2:19). At the same time each person knows what is in his or her heart. Trusting in the promises the Lord gives us, we know that we belong to that communion of saints, the church of God.

Characteristics of the invisible church

This invisible gathering of all believers is not limited by geography. The apostle John reminds us that believers come from different places and “from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9). In addition, the church is not limited by time. All believers who have lived, are now living, and will live until Jesus returns at the end of time—all these believers are part of this church. The church, the body of all believers, is invisible, and it is also universal. Once again we confess this fact in the Third Article of the Apostles’ Creed. “I believe in the holy Christian church.” The first people who used this confession of faith said, “I believe in the holy catholic church.” The word catholic originally had no denominational connotation. It simply meant universal. When catholic became associated with a particular organization, the word Christian was substituted to prevent confusion. In the Apostles’ Creed we confess that we believe that the Lord gathers together everyone whose faith is in Jesus Christ as the Savior.

People believe in many things. We say that we believe in our team, in our country, and in people who are dear to us. Likewise, many people believe in some religious figure other than Christ. God’s invisible church gathers together only those people who confess Jesus as their Savior. We distinguish ourselves from the followers of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and every other religion. We confess that Jesus Christ is true man and true God. We believe that Christ is sinless and perfect and that he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see.

In a world that suggests that it does not matter what you believe as long as you believe, it becomes important to remember that the invisible church gathers together all believers in Christ. Without faith in Jesus we cannot be saved. Without Jesus we have no part in the communion of saints, the gathering of all believers. Jesus makes that clear when he says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).

People die. Church buildings may fall apart. Congregations may disband. But the invisible church continues. The Lord has promised that there will always be true believers who are kept faithful by the power of God. “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:27,28). What a comfort it is to know that the Holy Spirit, who calls us to faith, also preserves us in that faith through the gospel in Word and sacraments!

It is easy to become attached to a congregation. It is in that fellowship that we listen to the good news of Jesus proclaimed. There we hear that our sins are forgiven. In our congregation we draw close to Jesus as we receive the sacrament of his body and blood. Likewise the building in which a congregation worships may be a special place. It may be the same structure in which we were baptized, confirmed, and married. It reminds us of all the blessings God has showered upon us.

But we are part of something that is even more valuable, the holy Christian church. Our triune God has brought us together with people we may never see or know on this side of eternity. Through faith the Lord has made us a part of the congregation of all believers. Right now we are not able to see this church in its entirety. Yet what is invisible to our eyes now will be seen when the Lord returns in glory. What a joy it will be to see all believers from every part of the world and from all times! The day will come when we will gather together and praise the God of grace who gives us membership in his family, the invisible church. That church is not really invisible. It is only invisible to us. God sees it clearly.

James Korthals, a professor at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, Mequon, Wisconsin, is a member at David’s Star, Jackson.

Peter's Picture of the Church

1 Peter 2:4-10

The word "temple" in our modern society usually describes a large, beautiful building which is used for the worship of some god. The use of such temples goes back thousands of years. Peter used it to paint a beautiful word picture of Jesus and his church in 2:4-8.

Made up of living stones

Jesus is pictured in many ways in John's gospel. Peter adds his own picture here, when he writes, "The Lord Jesus is the living stone" (v. 4). In verse 6 he gives the original source for this statement (Isaiah 28:16), where God said, "Look! I'm laying a stone in Zion [another name for Israel], a very special cornerstone of great value, and the person who believes in him will never be disappointed."

In the ancient world the cornerstone was more than a stone on which was carved the date of construction. The cornerstone determined the length, the width, and the height of the building, so that the whole building depended on that cornerstone.

That is the picture Peter uses to describe the church in verse 5a, where he says, "And since you are living stones, as you come to him you are built up into a spiritual temple," of which Jesus is the cornerstone. The church is built on Jesus, and around Jesus, the cornerstone. And it is made up of people who are like Jesus--perfectly holy beings in God's sight. That is the way God sees every person who truly believes in Jesus as his or her Savior, because our God-given faith makes us new creatures who are perfectly holy in God's sight, and every such person "will never be disappointed" on Judgment Day.

Then Peter explains in verse 7, "This means that he's of great value to you people who believe in him, but for those who don't believe in him, 'the stone which the builders [the Jewish nation as a whole] decided was no good, is the very one which has become the cornerstone'; and 'the stone which will make people stumble, and the rock which will make them fall.' "How clear Peter makes it that Jesus is the difference between eternal life and eternal damnation.

We are now a holy group of priests

Next Peter uses a new metaphor in verse 5 when he says that the believers who come to Jesus as living stones "are built up into a spiritual temple, to be a holy group of priests, who offer up spiritual sacrifices which God is happy to receive." He continues in verses 9,10, "There was a time when you were no people at all, but now you are God's people. You who never knew God's mercy have now received his mercy." Praise the Lord!

Peter is reminding us that there was a time when we were all outsiders, so far as God is concerned, unbelievers who had never heard of the triune God. But now that we have heard the good news and have come to believe it, we are God's people, while the Jews, as a nation, have rejected their Messiah and are outsiders.

Now you must take note of the fact that every believer is a priest whose principal occupation it is to offer spiritual sacrifices to our triune God each day of our lives. Yes, from morning to evening we offer our God our thanks and praises for the undeserved love he has shown us by sending first his Son to atone for all our sins, and then his Holy Spirit who has brought us to believe the good news that all our sins are forgiven by Jesus' death on the cross, so that we are now God's children who are perfectly holy in God's sight.

Our task as priests is to also bring him our other sacrifices. First there are our time and our talents which we spend carrying out the different tasks we can do as members of our congregations. In some cases we may give our Lord all of our time and talents to serve as pastors, teachers, missionaries, or church office workers.

All of us, whether we are active workers or not, can offer the Lord a portion of our financial resources, which represent the value of our time spent in some gainful occupation.

And of course the temple in which we serve is known to us as the church, the whole body of believers. The picture of the church that Peter gives us here is perhaps the most complete picture to be found anywhere in the Bible.

Julian Anderson is a retired pastor and seminary professor living in Naples, Florida.


(The Following article should help to illuminate why the Nation of Israel and it's people have seen thousands of years of turmoil).

Samuel: A Judge in Israel

Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers clamor for attention. Think back 300 years before Samuel. Following the death of those who carved a Jewish homeland out of Canaan, “another generation grew up, who knew neither the Lord nor what he had done for Israel” (Judges 2:10).

To awaken his spiritually-anesthetized people, God enlisted neighboring nations to harass, enslave, and terrorize Israel. Slapped to consciousness, God’s people recognized their sin, pleaded for forgiveness, and prayed for relief. God then raised up leaders—judges—who with the Lord’s power pushed back the oppressors. Moral and spiritual health flourished. But “when the judge died, the people returned to ways even more corrupt than those of their fathers . . .” (Judges 2:19).

Repenting to God

This cycle of godlessness, oppression, repentance, freedom, upright living, and a return to godlessness repeated itself until Samuel. Remember Eli and his sons? 1 Samuel 7 brings us to a repentance and freedom section of that cycle and to Samuel as Israel’s final judge.

The Ark of the Covenant remained in the border town of Kiriath-Jearim for 20 years after the Philistines captured it and then returned it to stem a Lord-induced plague. During those two decades “all the people of Israel mourned and sought after the Lord” (7:2).

To confirm that renaissance of faith, Samuel summoned his countrymen to a spiritually essential, but politically provocative, act—national purification and rededication. Israel was not a free country. Philistine overlords kept close watch. When their surveillance noticed huge numbers of Israelites staging at Mizpah (literally, “look out point”), their early-warning alarms wailed. Mizpah was a military gem mounted in hills about eight miles north of Jerusalem.

Soon the sound of Philistine marching boots, the clank of armor, and the bellow of war trumpets echoed off Mizpah. “When the Israelites heard of it, they were afraid . . .” (7:7). No doubt. Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers (dare we add personal problems or financial difficulties) clamor for attention.

Victory through God

Samuel, however, urged Israel to fasten on God. “Do not stop crying out to the Lord our God for us, that he may rescue us” (7:8). Strength was not in their military might, but in the Lord’s omnipotence.

God confirmed that. With Israeli knees bent in prayer and without an Israeli sword unsheathed, God’s deafening thunder routed the Philistine army. Panicked, the troops stumbled south toward safety. Their backs made easy targets.

The Philistine losses that day did not completely free Israel. We await Saul and David to accomplish that. Israel, however, did enjoy a season of peace with Philistia and, as a fringe benefit, with the Amorites.

Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers clamor for attention.

To mark the victory, Samuel set up a monument called Ebenezer (“stone of help”). Ebenezer stones (church cornerstones, wedding anniversaries, birthdays) remind us, “Thus far has the Lord helped us.” But our most conclusive proof that there’s always an upside in our downside world is Jesus, “the stone the builders rejected [that] has become the capstone” (1 Peter 2:7).

James A. Aderman is pastor at Fairview, Milwaukee.

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#161. To: Liberator (#141)

To: SJN, sneakypete

Sneakypete: "What is fascist is telling others they are to be required by law and the force of government to live according to YOUR beliefs." You have this totally backwards.

At first the "gay" movement was one of being able to tell the public that they enjoy sex with the same gender, then it was about being able to receive the same benefits from and employer. (Insurance,etc. as IF they were married). Now it's about churches and religious organizations being forced to marry them in their church's!

Yup. TOTALLY azz-backwards.

SJN, you have NAILED the MO of the fascist gay moment (which Petey supports 110%), as he and THEY try and reverse the truth of the matter.

First it's "Fundies" preventing them from porking each other up the wazoo, THEN we're stopping them from porking IN their actual bedroom, THEN we're guilty of stopping them from porking and marching in the streets, receiving "partnership" bennies (that straights CAN'T), and demanding respect and recognition of and for "gay marriage"...but lastly, DEMANDING to be married in Churches.

And now you have Pete lying and accusing "fundies" of (HIS WORDS) "telling others they are to be required by law and the force of government to live according to YOUR [Christian] beliefs."

BULL-SH*T, Pete.

I am reminded of the old Soldier getting ready to retire:

"When I first came in the Army being gay was illegal

Then it was tolerated

Then it was celebrated and approved

I am getting out before it becomes mandatory!!!"

LOL I love that one

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   13:15:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: Liberator, TooConservative (#142)

I like how Chick waits till the end to show the head revolutionary is wearing a Roman collar. Lol, yeah...How about that?

When at the Jesuit university many moons ago, I had to fill an elective when the class I was scheduled for was dropped due to a prof's illness. So all that was left that sounded interesting was a course named "Jesus in politics." Said, ok sounds good. Well it turned out to be a leftist liberation theology course. The Jesuit priest teaching the course wore street clothes and proudly proclaimed he was a "chaplain" for the Sandanistas in the early days when they were "struggling" for freedom. Long story short, at the end of the course after many heated debates in class I received my only "C".

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   13:22:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: A K A Stone, Liberator (#148)

Sneaky is on the left on a whole host of issues.

You know the saying...If you lay down with dogs, you will get fleas.

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   13:39:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: SJN (#134)

he Hutchinson City Council voted 3-2 to add sexual orientation to the city's anti-discrimination ordinance, which covers churches, as well as employers, restaurants and other local businesses.

Are you somehow under the impression that a city council can over rule the Constitution?

What you are either overlooking or don't know about is what PROBABLY happened is the church (your church?) has city contracts to feed the poor,teach illegal aliens how to get "free" stuff,etc,etc,etc. BECAUSE of the contract to provide public services to the local citizens,the city DOES have the RIGHT to DEMAND the church obey local hiring and discrimination laws.

ALL the church has to do to avoid this is give up the city contracts. It's up to them to determine if their religious views are more important than their bank balance. Either way the choice is theirs to make. Nobody is forcing them to do anything.

The City of San Francisco went through this same thing back when Willie Brown was Commissar. The Catholic Archdiocese of San Francisco objected to having to pay spousal/familial benefits to unmarried homosexuals that were living together,and took the case to court to plead that as a organized religion they were exempt from these laws,and the courts ruling against them because all they had to do to avoid going against their religious convictions was to give up the contracts.

Since they were getting FIVE MILLION DOLLARS a year from the city alone to do the things they are supposed to do for free anyhow,they decided the 5 million bucks were worth more to them than their religious convictions,so they caved and started paying same gender benefits.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   13:45:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: A K A Stone, SJN, TooConservative (#152)

TC came up with some interesting stats on the other forum. Of all the states that "legalized" gay "marriage" a very minute portion of the gay population has taken advantage of said laws. I pinged TC as well, maybe if he is not in a surly position today he will answer:)

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   13:45:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: SJN (#135)

And one other thing. Government did not 'create' marriage. God did.

Really? Who created God?

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   13:45:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: redleghunter (#160)

That puts me up to three Bozos here on LP. Must be making an impression:)

To be honest, I do normally bozo people for posting a graphics orgy on a thread.

I'm making an exception because Chick makes all the right heads explode.

At some point, even Chick's idiot webmaster will notice your pilfering images from his server and they'll hammer down that server hole. As of now, I don't anticipate Chick.com going after LP or LF with take-down notices but he certainly could pursue that.

Tooconservative  posted on  2012-06-28   13:45:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: CZ82, SJN, Liberator, A K A Stone (#153)

And where will it all end??? It won't end as long as people keep acquiesing to their demands....

The military is the petri dish. In the history of the military at first it was illegal to be a homosexual and serve. Then it moved to neutrality/tolerance. Then (now) it is accepted, and also celebrated with gay pride rallies at the pentagon. I fully intend to be out of the military before it becomes mandatory!

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   13:49:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: SJN (#135)

And one other thing. Government did not 'create' marriage. God did.

Really? Who created God?

Marriage is a religious institution created by that "spirit in the sky"

HorseHillary! Marriage was created by man in order to be able to control inhieritances and determine responsibility for children. It's a SOCIAL and legal construct,and not invented by some mythical creature.

If your God thought so highly of marriage and family,why did he choose to be a "playah" and impregnate ANOTHER man's wife? Drag his ass on one of the Maury "Baby Daddy" shows and prove paternity.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   13:50:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: TooConservative (#137)

I like how Chick waits till the end to show the head revolutionary is wearing a Roman collar.

Christianity and Communism have a LOT more in common than the members of either cult want to admit.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   13:51:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: Liberator (#139)

You're not only a damned liar but frickin' insane.

Desperation turns you desperate and desperation makes you ugly,doesn't it?

I am NOT a liar,and I am not at fault for the truth scaring you. Blame the people that brainwashed you and made you a cult member,not me.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   13:53:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: Liberator (#141)

SJN, you have NAILED the MO of the fascist gay moment (which Petey supports 110%),

Well,since you believe in myths and mythical creatures,it's no surprise you believe there is more than 100 percent of something.

As for me being a liar,fuck YOU AND your God creature. PROVE that SOB exists or shut the fuck up about him!

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   13:56:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: Liberator, *Irony* (#145)

No, he can't see that Canada's template for persecution of Christians dovetail with "Hate Crimes" and the declaration of the Bible as a "book of hate" ...is America's future.

None are so blind who refuse to see.

Irony ping number 2.

We can only follow Canada's lead if you fundy religious cultists are successful at destroying the US Constitution.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   13:58:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: Liberator (#147)

The "hysteria" is as follows:

"What is more dangerous to the Republic than homosexual marriage is fundie Christians trying to replace the Constitution with their religious superstitions."

The truth really scares you assholes,doesn't it?

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   13:59:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: A K A Stone (#148)

Sneaky is on the left on a whole host of issues.

No,it's just that you and the rest of the thumpers are blind to reality,and confused about the left and the right. You are fascists at heart,and fascism is a leftist political movement.

I am a right-winger and a conservative because I believe in a form of government that limits government control and maximizes individual freedoms. Both of which scare you and those like you.

It's YOU,Liberator,and the other fundies that are on the left.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:02:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: A K A Stone (#150)

Faggots should raise your grand kids. Don't complain about it lefty.

Exposing your own little fantasy about buttslamming little boys,are you?

Tell us all how many other Dim and Communist traits you believe in other than passing a law against something means it won't happen,or that YOU have a right to control the morality of your neighbors.

While you are at it,tell us all how wonderfully this worked for your mentors,Stalin,Hitler,and Mao.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:04:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: A K A Stone (#151)

Sneaky you are stupid. Men should be allowed in the womens restrom right.

You really are obsessed with asses and genitalia,aren't you?

BTW,do males and females use the same bathrooms at your house?

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:06:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: A K A Stone (#151)

Sneaky you are stupid. Men should be allowed in the womens restrom right.

You really are obsessed with asses and genitalia,aren't you?

BTW,do males and females use the same bathrooms at your house?

Are you one of the freaks that boys should be allowed in the girl scouts.

No,but I also don't believe the government is the entity entitled to make that decision.

Unlike you,who would DEMAND the government micro-manage the membership rolls of private and public institutions.

You must REALLY be thrilled with things like Affirmative Action and Government set-asides. They are right up your alley.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:08:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone, SJN (#165)

TC came up with some interesting stats on the other forum. Of all the states that "legalized" gay "marriage" a very minute portion of the gay population has taken advantage of said laws. I pinged TC as well, maybe if he is not in a surly position today he will answer:)

Hopefully, you actually care about my post on it since I just spent 20 minutes searching for it. Probably will get zero comments on it over here for my trouble.

Let's crunch a few numbers.

Assuming the law school's own estimate that 3% of the population is gay, the U.S. population of 330 million yields 9.9 million homosexuals.

And in all the states where gay marriage was legalized, they have only performed 77,000 marriages which is only 154,000 married homosexuals (we'll ignore that some of these are re-marriages).

So 154,000/9,900,000 = .0151515.

So even among gay people, only 1.5% have actually gotten married over the course of 8 years.

Just something to keep in mind the next time you hear about Adam and Steve who have supposedly been together for 30 years. (In most cases, these people are just what we would otherwise call roommates and co-owners of a home. They aren't actually monogamous and never were. At least one of them is cheating on the "spouse".)

Tooconservative  posted on  2012-06-28   14:09:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: Ferret Mike, SJN, Liberator, A K A Stone (#154)

"Lib and Stonie live for decisiveness, intolerance and the scapegoating of others to sell the bill of goods their hatred and intolerance of others is."

Really? Was it love and tolerance that led gays to stone and threaten Mormon churches after Prop 8 was passed in CA?

You come from a position that sees "tolerance" as being "acceptance."

Gays are asking for acceptance and indoctrination and not tolerance.

The true meaning of tolerance is this: you have a position, I have a position, we do not agree with each other's position but depart peacefully. What comes after this is called acceptance. Acceptance would be we have opposing views and one of us backs down and "accepts" the other's position as their own. Folks like SJN, me, Liberator and A K A Stone are all about tolerance as it is properly defined. We will not accept the homosexual position. And because folk like us do not accept your position on homosexuality there is only one option left to 'win' the debate. That would be called indoctrination and re- education. And WE ARE seeing that indoctrination today are we not? It is happening in the schools, after school programs, on TV and in universities. This week is the 50th Anniversary of the court decisions forbidding prayer and Bible study in public schools. So you can't say the Christians are trying to indoctrinate the kids in public forums, they can't it is illegal. However, given the homosexual lobby is not considered a religion (it should be) they can get local permission from school boards to "evangelize" their position thus cutting off the whole tolerance or acceptance route to the national debate.

That is what good Christian folk are fighting for. Some form of neutrality. If gays can spread their false gospel to the masses unopposed hiding behind the cloak of "intolerance" and "bigotry" of others, The Gospel of Jesus Christ should be getting equal time. And if Christians do not get equal time, then we should be all demanding neutrality, which brings us back to the REAL meaning of tolerance.

So based on the above, you can keep calling us intolerant bigots but that has little meaning and is just a chant. If you were tolerant in the real sense of the word, you could call the Christian response to the homosexual agenda as reactionary. And Christians would be correct and tolerant in calling the radical homosexual agenda an insurgency.

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   14:11:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: TooConservative (#167)

I'm making an exception because Chick makes all the right heads explode.

Well thank you for making an exception. I really mean that.

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   14:13:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: redleghunter, A K A Stone (#163)

Stone should just ban sneakypete. There are some other libs here at LF that need the same treatment.

At a certain point, no one don't want to keep reading the same Lefty anti-Christ rants over and over again.

And people like pete bring their gay buddies like meguro along for the ride.

It transforms free speech into primarily a freedom to blare their hate speech at everyone.

Tooconservative  posted on  2012-06-28   14:14:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: Ferret Mike (#154)

Lib and Stonie live for decisiveness, intolerance and the scapegoating of others to sell the bill of goods their hatred and intolerance of others is.

Exactly. They sound just like Obama,Jesse Jackson,and Al Sharpton,who of whom they share religious viewpoints with.

Nobody should be discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation,

You clearly don't get it,either. Discrimination against those unlike you IS A NORMAL HUMAN EMOTION,and NONE of the business of government.

Citizens have a perfect right to discriminate anyone they want for any reason,and even for no reason at all.

It's the GOVERNMENT that is not allowed to discriminate. The government represents us all,and because of this it can NOT be allowed to discriminate against one citizen to benefit another citizen. The fact that lefties like you think it is ok for the government to discriminate against whites (for example) to benefit minorities places you,AKA Stone,and Liberator in the same boat. No,it's not going to be a happy crew,but you do deserve each other due to your love of powerful governments and powerless citizens.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:15:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: TooConservative, A K A Stone, SJN, Liberator, Biff Tannen (#179)

Let's crunch a few numbers. Assuming the law school's own estimate that 3% of the population is gay, the U.S. population of 330 million yields 9.9 million homosexuals.

And in all the states where gay marriage was legalized, they have only performed 77,000 marriages which is only 154,000 married homosexuals (we'll ignore that some of these are re-marriages).

So 154,000/9,900,000 = .0151515.

So even among gay people, only 1.5% have actually gotten married over the course of 8 years.

Just something to keep in mind the next time you hear about Adam and Steve who have supposedly been together for 30 years. (In most cases, these people are just what we would otherwise call roommates and co-owners of a home. They aren't actually monogamous and never were. At least one of them is cheating on the "spouse".)

Thanks for searching. I do appreciate it. I think it will get responses. Especially with inviting Biff to respond to it.

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   14:16:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: Ferret Mike (#156)

Your rantings promoting bigotry and hate don't reach any audience of lurkers trying to decide on the merits of issues like these

And it damn sure does NOT help the conservative cause as people who lean conservative but maybe have a child,relative,or close friend that is a homosexual that they wouldn't want to see demonized and punished by a biggotted government that is stepping beyond it's Constitutional bounds.

Guess which candidate these people are going to vote for when they step into the booth.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:18:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: Biff Tannen (#157)

lol, you are trying to use the force of government to impose your beliefs.

Of course they are. Even they know they are wrong to do this,or they wouldn't lie to themselves and us about it.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:20:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: redleghunter (#161)

Do you think the government can pass a law and make YOU a homosexual?

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:21:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: sneakypete, SJN, Liberator, A K A Stone (#183)

Exactly. They sound just like Obama,Jesse Jackson,and Al Sharpton,who of whom they share religious viewpoints with.

LOL pete, you must angle for catfish a lot dangling those chicken gizzards in front of Liberator and Stonie.

The above share the same religious viewpoints as the race hustlers??!! Wow that is one for the books. Care to list a few similarities?

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   14:23:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: sneakypete (#187)

Do you think the government can pass a law and make YOU a homosexual?

You missed the point. Forced "acceptance" of a view is tyranny. We are seeing the tyranny in the schools with indocrination programs.

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   14:25:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: TooConservative (#182)

And people like pete bring their gay buddies like meguro along for the ride.

Gimme a kiss!

Right on my big red ass.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:25:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: redleghunter (#188)

The above share the same religious viewpoints as the race hustlers??!! Wow that is one for the books. Care to list a few similarities?

Jesus,God,the Holy Bible,Virgin Birth,hell and damnation,etc,etc,etc. None is so blind........

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:28:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: redleghunter (#189)

You missed the point. Forced "acceptance" of a view is tyranny.

Nobody can force you to accept any viewpoint. Period.

Yeah,they can shut you up in public or at work in order to avoid being physically attacked or fired,but nobody can make you believe what you don't want to believe.

"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011

Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs

Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.

sneakypete  posted on  2012-06-28   14:29:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: TooConservative, sneakypete, war, meguro (#182)

Stone should just ban sneakypete.

You just went to #1 on my a-hole list.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2012-06-28   14:30:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: sneakypete (#185)

And it damn sure does NOT help the conservative cause

Kind of fuzzy on what you consider "the conservative cause."

Is it preventing government from intruding on the "right" of a gay man to bunk in with Boy Scouts?

Is it preventing government from taking away the pot you grow out in the woods?

Just trying to get what your brand of "conservatism" is. Perhaps you meant libertarian cause or liberal cause.

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   14:30:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: Biff Tannen, SJN, A K A Stone, Liberator, TooConservative (#157) (Edited)

SJN:And one other thing. Government did not 'create' marriage. God did. Government sanctioned it through State laws. And I misspoke when I said I don't care if Homosexuals get married. I do. They should be allowed CIVIL legal bonds. But NOT marriage. Marriage is a religious institution created by that "spirit in the sky" that you so despise and was created for one man and one woman to enter in to and bring forth children to form a family unit.

Biff: lol, you are trying to use the force of government to impose your beliefs.

Biff you are full of it again. The 1st Amendment allows the free exercise of religion. I think you need to look at 'who' is having government to force their beliefs. Homosexuals are calling their movement a civil rights movement, which means the government comes in on their behalf. So who is getting the big bad bully to fight its battles? Not Christians.

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   14:39:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: sneakypete (#191)

Jesus,God,the Holy Bible,Virgin Birth,hell and damnation,etc,etc,etc. None is so blind........

I have never heard any of the race hustler "preachers" do any of the above.

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   14:42:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: sneakypete (#192)

Yeah,they can shut you up in public or at work

And the end result is what from that? Having to deprogram your kids when they come home from school. Still sounds like tyranny to me when one side is shut up and the other has free exercise of their message. We are all being MISO'ed by the left and you are ok with it. You even encourage it. And as an SF Soldier you will figure out what MISO is.

As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)

redleghunter  posted on  2012-06-28   14:47:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: TooConservative, redleghunter, A K A Stone, sneakypete (#182)

Stone should just ban sneakypete. There are some other libs here at LF that need the same treatment.

At a certain point, no one don't want to keep reading the same Lefty anti-Christ rants over and over again.

And people like pete bring their gay buddies like meguro along for the ride.

It transforms free speech into primarily a freedom to blare their hate speech at everyone.

How about we just cap your whinny ass instead, and keep the others?

Alot you know about 'freedom of speech', and who the first ammendent protects, azzhole, do all of us a favore and change your user name, you're giving legitimate conservatives a bad name with your ignorance.

If there is something on this forum you don't wish to read, skip over it. If a member offends you, then use the filter stone provided for you.

You don't speak for everyone here, but your posts speaks volumes about you, an Obama brown shirt snitch, out to silence dissent, that is a 'leftist' anti- American behavior.

Suck it up, or move on! jmho!

"A friend will calm you down when you are angry, but a best friend will skip beside you with a baseball bat singing, "someone's gonna get it"

Murron  posted on  2012-06-28   15:13:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: Fred Mertz, A K A Stone (#193)

You just went to #1 on my a-hole list.

He should ban you too.

Tooconservative  posted on  2012-06-28   15:13:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: Murron (#198)

And you're just a crackpot, circling the Tidy Bowl with LF's liberal contingent.

Tooconservative  posted on  2012-06-28   15:18:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: redleghunter (#197)

And as an SF Soldier you will figure out what MISO is.

I don't know why you accept his claims at face value. Or why you consider his opinion to have elevated meaning if he was SF.

We have a confessed war criminal now running for U.S. Senate. He was a SEAL who has admitted to war crimes in Vietnam. So does that somehow make him credible all at once? Maybe he could wave his stump at you if you doubt him.

But we do know he is a SEAL. Can you vouch for sneaky? I don't think so.

The internet is chock full of SEAL wannabes. Even those who never served can pick up plenty of lingo and procedural information at the various vet forums.

Tooconservative  posted on  2012-06-28   15:27:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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