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Title: The Myth About Marriage
Source: New York Review of Books
URL Source: http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblo ... s%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
Published: May 13, 2012
Author: Garry Wills
Post Date: 2012-05-13 10:23:43 by lucysmom
Keywords: None
Views: 18936
Comments: 126

Why do some people who would recognize gay civil unions oppose gay marriage? Certain religious groups want to deny gays the sacredeness of what they take to be a sacrament. But marriage is no sacrament.

Some of my fellow Catholics even think that “true marriage” was instituted by Christ. It wasn’t. Marriage is prescribed in Eden by YHWH (Yahweh) at Genesis 2.24: man and wife shall “become one flesh.” When Jesus is asked about marriage, he simply quotes that passage from Genesis (Mark 10.8). He nowhere claims to be laying a new foundation for a “Christian marriage” to replace the Yahwist institution.

Some try to make the wedding at Cana (John 1.1-11) somehow sacramental because Jesus worked his first miracle there. But that was clearly a Jewish wedding, like any other Jesus might have attended, and the miracle, by its superabundance of wine, is meant to show the disciples that the Messianic time has come. The great Johannine scholar Father Raymond Brown emphasizes this, and concludes of the passage: “Neither the external nor the internal evidence for a symbolic reference to matrimony is strong. The wedding is only the backdrop and occasion for the story, and the joining of the man and woman does not have any direct role in the narrative.”

The early church had no specific rite for marriage. This was left up to the secular authorities of the Roman Empire, since marriage is a legal concern for the legitimacy of heirs.

snip

Those who do not want to let gay partners have the sacredness of sacramental marriage are relying on a Scholastic fiction of the thirteenth century to play with people’s lives, as the church has done ever since the time of Aquinas. The myth of the sacrament should not let people deprive gays of the right to natural marriage, whether blessed by Yahweh or not. They surely do not need—since no one does—the blessing of Saint Thomas.

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#43. To: lucysmom (#41)

Go forth and read. I won't do the research you apparently are unwilling to do for yourself.

SJN  posted on  2012-05-13   13:34:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Fibr Dog (#42)

Good points.

I want to point out, however, that irrespective of religious practices from animism to the Church of Scientology and all those in between, that marriage was an important consideration in secular societies as well. Again, the goal has always been to ensure a minimum of social standards about a relationship wherein children were an important attribute for and about the same community.

Beyond having progeny, another social goal was to ensure reasonable community FORCE against those that violated the bonds of the communal vows. Rape, incest, homosexuality and so forth were always shunned within almost all societies around the world. If someone was caught in acts that violated social standards, they were often shunned or chastised for years or even worse, put to death.

As modern societies evolve, we are intricately linked to our past of many thousands of years. It is codified in our DNA and the documented laws for social behaviour. And the sense of "shame" shall always be the first area of responsible considerations, even if there is some sort of agreement to keep a relationship secret or away from society.

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   13:53:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: All (#0)

Why do some people who would recognize gay civil unions oppose gay marriage?

And I still haven't seen anybody mention the real reason why gays want to get married in the first place......

Leftardism/Liberalism: The chickenschitt way to deal with life’s problems by creating solutions to problems that don’t exist, thereby creating a problem where none existed before and then having to find a solution to that one…

CZ82  posted on  2012-05-13   14:03:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: SJN (#35)

Your religion's erronious perception of homosexuality belongs solely to people like you if you ant it. It should not be the basis of what is codified into law.

ADA research and all other well conducted and impartial studies have shown homosexuality to just be a normal human sexual variation.

People who are homosexual are every bit as productive and moral as anyone else.

Sexual preference of an individual does not effect negitively another person who has a different gender preference.

It's time for folks like you to grow up and fact that fact. Because the rest of us are not going to live by your belief on homosexuality you glean from a segment of a religion many of us do not agree with.

Homosexuality is part of the spectrum of normal human sexuality. And that has always been the case, and is something that will will never change.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   14:37:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: CZ82 (#45)

"And I still haven't seen anybody mention the real reason why gays want to get married in the first place......"

And I see the old snear that gays and lesbians have many short relationships and this is detrimental to their health and welfare justified at all if it is those uttering such nonsense are the ones working aggressively to make it as hard as possible to commit to and live ib a stable long term relationship.

It's time to stop oppressing people and tho legalize marriage for all in this country.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   14:41:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: SJN (#35)

What is unjust is to try to impose your religion on the laws that involve everyone else.

There is nothing obscene about one human being making this strong a commitment to another.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   14:42:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Ferret Mike, SJN (#48)

What is unjust is to try to impose your religion on the laws that involve everyone else. [?]

There is a precursor to your idea that needs an answer before your question is answered. How does a homosexual promote social standards and goals since a homosexual can not have children? As a group, aren't they a detriment to social goals for the survival of society?

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   14:52:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: buckeroo (#49)

Homosexuals have children, and the ability to procreate is not the benchmark to determine if a marriage is valid or not.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   14:55:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Ferret Mike (#50)

Homosexuals have children

Can you explain this natural phenomena?

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   14:57:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: buckeroo (#51)

I don't need to explain it twice. You lack rationality in stipulating the child bearing issue is the benchmark of marriage and then saying that only homosexual couple who don't have children with each other or through adoption are the non-childbearing couple to be discriminated here.

You explain to me how people past child bearing years or are incapable of having children with each other should be allowed to marry yet claim that the only thing that is important in marriage how well the team of two can drop pups. This is an illogical posture to take, but you don't care because the primary motivation you have here is based on hatred and intolerance.

I seem many women couples in town who have plenty of kids who are well adjusted and flourishing. And the kids do not turn out gay if their parents have that gender preference.

It is inherent in a person's nature to be straight or gay. It is not taught or a fad someone buys into.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   15:12:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Ferret Mike (#52)

Yes you do need to explain your post. You made the post, correct? How do homosexuals NATURALLY have children? Don't evade the question, Mike. Come clean and discuss the merits of your ideas.

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   15:15:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: buckeroo (#53)

I have. Just because you don't want to acknowledge I've addressed this, I am not going to pander to your contrivance here.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   15:27:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: buckeroo (#15)

Keep kicking their as buckeroo.

A K A Stone  posted on  2012-05-13   15:31:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Ferret Mike (#54)

Are you saying that homosexuals have natural birth? Let us see....

Homosexuals have children

and

Homosexuals have babies all the time.

Can you explain in any detail how this phenomena occurs?

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   15:31:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: buckeroo (#56) (Edited)

I explained how. You are just unwilling to acknowledge that.

To you, a heterosexual partner who have to rely on a surrigate Mom or artificial insemination as being normal but a gay couple who does the same sort of thing with the same end goal in mind are horrble to you.

This is a double standard, and points to the fact I have already covered this base with you and points to the bigotry that spawns your cognitive dissonance on the topic.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   15:35:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Ferret Mike, *Yukon neo-Progressive Vermin* (#46)

Homosexuality is part of the spectrum of normal human sexuality

For wiccan tree divers.


"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul

Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.

hondo68  posted on  2012-05-13   15:39:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: hondo68 (#58)

Except the mental heath establishment that has sown homosexuality not to be an evil or a stigma are made up of scant few of those.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   15:41:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Ferret Mike (#57)

I explained how. [how homosexuals have children NATURALLY]

I know you regard me as a fairely simple and stupid poster, as though I am a mere country bumpkin, but I am intrigued how two males can have children OR conversely, how two women can have children naturally without male/female interaction.

Look, I am learning all the time. Help me!

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   15:46:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: buckeroo (#60)

The point you make a mountain out of a molehill over is that has nothing to do with the right to marriage. Unless you are a believer that infertile humans should be banned from marriage, or even have it ended if their fertile period of life ends.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   15:49:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Ferret Mike (#61)

The point you make a mountain out of a molehill over is that has nothing to do with the right to marriage.

Marriage has ALWAYS been between a single man and a woman. It is a contract between themselves and society at large. It is a rite of passage about one's maturity to be successful in the raising of children and family life overall.

How is that idea a "mountain out of a molehill over is that has nothing to do with the right to marriage"?

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   15:53:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: buckeroo (#62) (Edited)

Homophobia and bigotry of homosexuals has not always been such a common affliction. Your 'always" is a lie.

Marriage is a commitment between two people that should always be permitted. The human race would not be better if people who prefer same gender relationships were forced to go against their will to marry someone of the opposite sex.

Hatred and oppression would win, and human rights and the common good would suffer greatly.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   15:58:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Ferret Mike (#63)

Homophobia and bigotry of homosexuals has not always been such a common affliction. Your 'always" is a lie.

Lets review human history for a moment. Where has homosexuality been honoured?

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   16:05:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Ferret Mike, *Liberal Rehab Staff* (#59) (Edited)

the mental heath establishment that has sown homosexuality

The homo mafia has tried using strong-arm tactics, but normal people aren't buying it. Kenyans know the Obama illness well, and aren't afraid to speak the truth. It's settled science, known for 6 thousand years.



Homosexual Diseases Part 3: Mental Disorders (Kenyans Against Homosexuality - Confronting Homosexuality with Facts)

In a press release dated December 15, 1973, the APA became the first medical organisation “to officially remove the stigma of disease from persons with same-sex preference”. It’s very important to note that no new medical findings had been made about homosexuality between 1970 and 1973 to reverse the diagnosis that it was a disease. The homosexual lobby brought about this reversal by its persistent and for the most part, dishonest public campaigning. This included coercion and lobbying of government and influential organizations in America.

Numerous incidences are well documented during this period when homo activists frequently disrupted medical conferences, shouting down speakers and physically intimidating scientists. Clearly, the 1973 reversal was a political and not a scientific decision by the APA.

Its very easy to understand why the homosexual activists resorted to these unscientific tactics. The credibility of the homosexual movement was at great risk as long as the medical professional listed their behaviour as a sickness. Public opinion in America (and elsewhere) could be greatly influenced to regard homosexuality positively if a “scientific opinion” was to lend support to the homosexual cause. Thus, the 1973 APA decision opened the most important door for homosexuality to find a legal footing in western countries.

I will now demonstrate here that homosexuality remains a mental disorder, despite what misguided Western nations may want Africans to believe. Any honest, unbiased person who has studied the medical literature relating to homosexuality will surely reach the same conclusion.


"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul

Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.

hondo68  posted on  2012-05-13   16:07:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Ferret Mike (#57)

I explained how. You are just unwilling to acknowledge that.

To you, a heterosexual partner who have to rely on a surrigate Mom or artificial insemination as being normal but a gay couple who does the same sort of thing with the same end goal in mind are horrble to you.

This is a double standard, and points to the fact I have already covered this base with you and points to the bigotry that spawns your cognitive dissonance on the topic.

Mike quit playing stupid. Faggots can't reporduce with themselves. Then need to sexually abuse a woman in some manner.

Mike I know you said your mom abused you as a child. There is something seriously wrong with you. Did she molest you? You never mentioned your dad. Do you know him. Did he spend time with you?

Did you play with barbies and wear a dress as a child?

Did you have a labotomy or did you maybe have your head run over by a steam roller?

A K A Stone  posted on  2012-05-13   16:12:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: buckeroo (#64)

Homosexuality in History

This is just one of many links with material covering the topic. I already did this ground in more then one sociology class, and I am not going to do it once more here.

I am not gay and do not feel the pressing need to devote this much time and more to this topic; particularly in this hostile venue.

You are welcome to read up on this should you chose.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   16:13:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Ferret Mike (#63)

Homophobia

Is a word insecure faggots such as yourself made up to try and make themselves feel better.

You and your faggot friends are normaphobes. Freaks, perverts degenerates, kindling, useless eaters.

A K A Stone  posted on  2012-05-13   16:14:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: A K A Stone (#66)

"Did you have a labotomy or did you maybe have your head run over by a steam roller? "

Did your lobotomy make you so stupid you cannot even spell the word?

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   16:15:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: A K A Stone (#68)

It is a childish game to bait people as part of the group involved in the header topic. It is you who looks stupid doing this, not me, Mr. High School games.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   16:17:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Ferret Mike (#69)

Did someone stick an ice pick in your eye and swish it around?

Your existence is making me understand the need that societies in the past felt to burn witches. They didn't deal with freaks like you. They just got rid of you.

A K A Stone  posted on  2012-05-13   16:17:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Ferret Mike (#70)

Is a word insecure faggots such as yourself made up to try and make themselves feel better.

A K A Stone  posted on  2012-05-13   16:17:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Ferret Mike (#67)

in this hostile venue.

Understatement of the year.

A K A Stone  posted on  2012-05-13   16:18:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: SJN (#34) (Edited)

It is upholding what God Himself put together and not perverting it.

Do you have the right to impose your religious "beliefs" on others? I have yet to see the great harm shown that will result from gay marriage. Gays are, have been, and always will be a small part of the population and therefore any perceived impact on families will be negligible.

NewsJunky  posted on  2012-05-13   16:19:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Ferret Mike (#67)

You are welcome to read up on this should you chose.

No. Stand your ground, Mike. Put up or shut the fuck up about how homosexuals have children naturally. No stinkin' hotlinks.

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   16:19:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: A K A Stone (#72)

You deserve no more consideration. Happy Mother's Day.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   16:22:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: buckeroo (#75)

No. Stand your ground, Mike. Put up or shut the fuck up about how homosexuals have children naturally. No stinkin' hotlinks.

They don't even have them unnaturally. They can only hold them hostage. They aren't parents. They aren't a family. A family can never consist of two homosexuals.

A K A Stone  posted on  2012-05-13   16:22:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: buckeroo (#75)

End of discussion.

You no longer wish dialog anyway.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   16:24:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Ferret Mike (#78)

End of discussion.

You no longer wish dialog anyway.

Tuck your talk and run wuss.

A K A Stone  posted on  2012-05-13   16:25:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Ferret Mike (#47)

And I see the old snear that gays and lesbians have many short relationships and this is detrimental to their health and welfare justified at all if it is those uttering such nonsense are the ones working aggressively to make it as hard as possible to commit to and live ib a stable long term relationship.

Not even close.....

Leftardism/Liberalism: The chickenschitt way to deal with life’s problems by creating solutions to problems that don’t exist, thereby creating a problem where none existed before and then having to find a solution to that one…

CZ82  posted on  2012-05-13   16:27:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Ferret Mike (#78)

You are wise to shut the FUCK UP.

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   16:29:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: buckeroo (#81)

"You are wise to shut the FUCK UP."

Piss off.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2012-05-13   16:31:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Ferret Mike (#82)

Cat got your tongue about how gays have children on a natural basis?

buckeroo  posted on  2012-05-13   16:33:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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